There a few topics I swore not to discuss on my blog for fear of coming off completely odd sounding, but then I spent my shower (where I’m usually plotting my stories) thinking about this post.
I don’t understand the online romance community. 
Really. I don’t get it.
I was so naive when I came onto the cybercircuit of romance. Nowadays I’m not certain I remember what it was I was hoping to accomplish when I started. I launched my site pre-publication because I had this ridiculous belief that I would sell quickly. I don’t think it was as TSTL as thinking, “Write a book and it’ll get published.” But I started out with the ability to finish full mss in short periods of time and I received a lot of requests for “more” from partials, which I knew was unusual. I got enough requests from a few different publishers and agents I just figured one of them would turn into a CALL. (I really hope that doesn’t come across as ego. 
It would be ignorance more than ego.) So hiring a designer and launching a website seemed like a reasonable investment in my future career.
When I launched my site in June, I didn’t know any other writers and I wasn’t a member of any chapters. I couldn’t talk about writing with anyone. I was so excited when my site went live and the first few e-mails came in asking me questions. Those e-mails are why I started this blog. I wanted to “think out loud”. I thought the blog would help me interact more. By some miracle, the web design firm I hired to build my site also happened to be made up of huge blog proponents. They started coming by and engaging me in conversations. Suddenly, I knew some writers. 
Then I launched my message board and more writers came by. Writers approached me to critique with them, invitations came in to join writer’s groups, I learned about listservs. There was a whole world of romance writers out there!! 
I was so excited. 
I joined some listservs, I started branching out, I made the occasional post. But I didn’t find the sweetness and light I’d so long associated with romance authors. 
Nope, mostly I found a lot of 
and 
. There were cliques and most of the time I felt like I was intruding or unwanted. (Told you I might come across as sounding odd.) I swear every time I stick my toe in the water with other writers I regret it. I scurry back here to my blog and just wait for my friends to come over.
This doesn’t apply to readers. I have fun talking with them and find them to be friendly and personable. Most writers however don’t turn out to be very nice over the long term. 
And some are just… yuck.
Honestly, I miss the type of friendships I have in the real world in my cyberworld. My real friends are loyal, they stand by me. In the Army, I can’t tell you how many scrapes I got into 
, but every time my friends stood stoically beside me, they’d go through whatever I dragged us all into without a flinch. Of course, afterwards they’d rant and rage and go, “Damn it, Day! What the hell did you do that for?” But when the heat was on, they were a united front with me. Do people build such friendships in the online romance community? I get the feeling it’s an “every writer for herself” sort of environment. I often feel lonely in the romance cyberspace, adrift without any deep friendships. I know this has a lot to do with me and my shyness. I just don’t reach out to people I want to get to know better. I wait for them to approach me first and if they don’t… well I don’t ever get to know them.
And the whole “Nice Girls Club” of romance writers? It doesn’t exist, sad to say. I’ve heard so many stories about stolen ideas, backstabbings, snarkiness. I’ve seen personal attack rants on blogs, private loop sniping, rebuttal posts that are just pure nastiness. I can’t believe how many people will post a rebuttal that has no point other than to say that the post they’re replying to sucks and the writer is an idiot. Argh! 
If you don’t have an intelligent reply, why waste everyone’s time showing off what a bitch you are? Or how about those posts that are poorly hidden digs or posts that are written with syrupy sweetness to cover the vinegar beneath? Every freakin’ day I see stuff like this among the romance writer online community.
I’m completely disillusioned by the experience.
Anyway, I’m still on the lookout for honestly genuine people who don’t have insecurity issues, don’t want to sabotage their friends, and want to give and receive support. If you’re out there and I haven’t met you yet, or we’re not yet friends, speak up. I’d like to change that.
Is it because the romance writing community is at everyone’s fingertips(in the way that romance writing communities and organizations are growing online at the rate of the speed of light) and they feel as though they must protect themselves and/or “their own(friends,interests) because it is such an insular and incestuous community?
Is it because the romance community is so much easier to become a part of than most other genres? Is it a backlash from the negative vibes that come from defending the genre to naysayers? I have no idea, but sometimes I feel as though I’d better wear my armor and grab my lance before joining a conversation for fear that I’ll be seen as “beneath” certain people, ergo, my opinions/statements don’t matter.
Maybe it’s the result of constant barrages of information about the genre’s state in the market that unintentionally becomes a scare tactic, putting everyone on edge and souring their outlook on their possible career. I can’t rightly state the motives of anyone other than myself. But I can say that I agree with you Sylvia. I also want to find romance writers who have an objective, mature eye on the business, are supportive, are encouraging, have the ability to put themselves in another person’s shoes, are talented and are just plain old kind. Maybe if people like you step out and take a stance on not accepting the current mindsets, things will change.
by EvangelineHi, My name’s Sasha. I like to think I’m an honestly genuine person. But …opinions can vary.
Sorry to hear thigns aren’t all you thought they were. While I do see some snarkiness, I also see a lot of support , education and advice out there. I hope you see more of the good in the future.
by Sasha March 26th, 2005 at 2:13 amHi Sylvia,
Sorry to hear you’ve had so many negative experiences on listservs for writers.
That really sucks. While I’ve seen everything you mentioned, I’ve also been lucky enough to find some good lists where people ARE supportive and helpful, rather than snarky and mean. They do exist! But the only ones where I’ve never encountered any mean spirits are those I’ve started myself. After reading of your experience, I’m so glad my intro to the internet romance writer community was on the now defunct Prodigy Romance Writers Bulletin Board. I’m still friends with some of the people I met there.
I’m also happy this blog and your message board have established themselves as happy places, where everyone plays nice. Much better than backstabbing and snarkiness
by Teresa March 26th, 2005 at 6:33 amSorry to say I’ve been on both sides of this. I’ve ranted and been ranted about. The one thing I’ve learned about the romance community is that it IS made of loyal friends. And heaven help the woman who comes down on the wrong side of them. The flip side there is that she’s got her own set of friends and so battle lines are sometimes drawn in haste, leaving those who are acquainted with both camps in an uncomfortable position.
I’ve been guilty, I think, of the clique mentality, too, although I try to remain conscious of that and stay open to new friends.
I think we sometimes forget that learning how to navigate cyberspace is still a new thing for some folks. A lot of us have been around long enough to know better than to respond to every snarky comment, but there’s always someone who is just going to have to learn the hard way. Sometimes even the more experienced of us forget.
I’ve been fortunate to have found true friends in the on-line romance community. Friends who are more than “writing buddies” but who e-mail and call about real life, too. Those friends make up for a lot of the unpleasant side effects of cramming a few thousand women into a small cyber-space.
by Sela March 26th, 2005 at 6:49 amI think you find this kind of thing everywhere, both in the real world (which is why I always preferred jobs where I worked alone or only with men,) and in writing. And as snarky, backstabbing, and rude as the romance community can be, I’ve seen worse in the literary fiction and scriptwriting communities. Those people can be sharks beyond anything any romance writer can do. It’s awful.
I think what makes the romance community seem worse is that we don’t expect sharkiness from romance authors. We expect sweetness and help. But underneath all the HEA endings and tender emotions, we’re dealing with women. Women who want to get ahead of everyone else. Bitter women. Competitive women.
Yes, there is help and support in the community. There are wonderful, positive women. Absolutely. But I think sometimes we just become overwhelmed by the negativity at times and can’t separate ourselves from it to see the good side.
Buck up, lil’ camper–the good is out there! I promise.
by Larissa March 26th, 2005 at 7:09 amSome of my best friends in this world I’ve met from online writing groups. We see each other maybe once a year at National. But they know me better than most of my “real friends”. But that said, I’ve also received the CUT from writers I would never have imagined could treat me that way. You always here stories like that. It’s a strange business. Like Larissa said, made up of mostly women. Sometimes bitter, competitive, I’m always right women.
I’m sure my group of writer friends are sometimes seen as clique, but we do try to include others into our group.
Then there have a been a few writers that are just always giving and caring and amazingly patient. So they are out there.
And I “met” you through your blog. Glad to have found you. You’re on my blog hop circuit, I enjoy your posts. This cybercircuit romance community. Who would have thought? And I plot in the shower too
by kacey March 26th, 2005 at 9:02 amI have to agree but it’s like anything–you have to learn to take your knocks as well as learn who you can trust. I’ve been involved in other non-writing related groups and I can ASSURE you, romance writers aren’t the only ones like this. I have friends I used to travel to see that I never hear a word from anymore.
Such is life.
On the flip side, I’ve been screwed over by a ton of “friends” IRL. Again, such is life. And I seriously doubt that other writing genres are much different. They might “fight” about different things (ie real mystery vs cozy mystery and sci-fi vs fantasy) but when you get a group of people together, there’s goign to be clashes.
And like you and Kacey and others I’ve heard from I plot in the shower too
by cece March 26th, 2005 at 9:19 amArrgh!! my (long) post just got eaten because I didn’t fill in the email info!! ::deep breath::
Here’s the short version: Sorry the bad stuff has gotten to you (hope it wasn’t *personal*) but as the other ladies pointed out, the crap you see happening in the cyber romance writing world, is the same smelly stuff you encounter in real life. I think it’s just the *expectation* that everyone is all sweet and supportive, when that’s not always the case. When the cliques/bullshit gets to me, I find another hangout.
by Jaq March 26th, 2005 at 9:52 amI should add, that, like everyone else who’s posted, I’ve *met* some wonderful people online–many of them post here.
by Jaq March 26th, 2005 at 9:54 amIt wasn’t any one person or event, just an accumulation of events and run-ins. I am tremendously grateful for my blog, message board, and the friends I have who all approached me through my site. I just hate it, absolutely detest it when I do come out of lurk to comment somewhere and get a chilly reception, for whatever reason. I understand that part of this comes from my inability to say things in the helpful way I meant, but I think a greater part comes from the perceptions of the people on the receiving end. I really get the feeling that so many people have been burned in the past that their hackles are already raised, their defenses are up and they’re ready to go to blows over the slightest perceived slight.
And some are just yucky.
Nothing drives me crazier than people who dismiss your comments off-hand. Case in point, a few days ago I wrote a reply to an upubbed writer’s question about whether or not she should build a website. This is one of the few issues I feel strongly about, because my site has done so much for me. I wrote a lengthy reply detailing my thoughts. Then came a rebuttal comment. “We talked about this before and agreed that it would be better to wait until you’re published.” Now, what the hell is that? I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I agree I’m overly sensitive, but come on! What’s wrong with saying, “While there are some valid reasons to start a site prior to publication, here are the reasons why I feel that it would be more beneficial to wait.” (And I’d love to hear how it’s “more beneficial” to wait. I’ve yet to read a good argument other than, “A site will distract you from writing.” which I heartily disagree with or “Don’t spend any money until you’re making money.” which I also heartily disagree with.)
Anyway, *g* back to writing. I need to finish Alex’s story.
by SylviaSad topic. I can’t say you’re wrong, because the truth is the internet community (not limited to romance) can be a forum for some terribly bad behavior. This is especially true in unmoderated forums and those without rules that are upheld. Flame wars and people who just plain love to argue are out there. And yes, there are groups in the Real World to avoid, too.
This is not a minor thing if you’re a creative person, because who you surround yourself with can have a big impact on your productivity. It’s not a bad thing to recognize that a group or forum is having a bad effect on you and cross it off your list. I’ve done it myself several times.
There are really good online communities, however, just like there are good Real World groups, and they’re invaluable.
I’ve met some pretty interesting people through RTB, including you, and I’m glad I have!
I’ll keep visiting your blog.
by Charlene March 26th, 2005 at 11:08 amLook at all the positve friends you have here! :D. Just hide here and on your message board…we don’t mind keeping you to ourselves for a while.
by Sasha March 26th, 2005 at 11:41 amI agree with the others. But this form of text-only communication does sometimes make us impose our own perceptives on.
If someone writes, “Yeah, right’ as a response to a sincere suggestion that she should blog less, how will that response be interpreted? Snarky? Negative? Humorous? This works the other way round, too - a person’s geninue nice comment can come off insincere, snarky or such.
I have learnt, from spending time in old usenet days, to adopt a tactic: before reacting, check my own mood that may be influencing my perception. 8 of 10, it’s usually my mood that colours my perception. This is why I rarely post responses when I’m PMTing or in a negative mood.
“Then came a rebuttal comment. “We talked about this before and agreed that it would be better to wait until you’re published.†etc.”
Two things: 1) it’s your interpretation that it’s a rebuttal; my interpetation is she’s stating the status of this situation, and 2) it seems to me that she made a black splat in your good books for a) not reacting accordingly to your preconceived script and b) thanking you and acknowledging your time in making the effort to respond.
a) I’m guilty of this charge in real life. I get miffed if my hubby doesn’t say what I expected to hear. Or as he put it, “follow your mental script”.
It doesn’t help that all this is text-based, so we do have to try to not to expect what people will say. If they didn’t voice the expected comment, we should try not to take an offence. IMO, no expectations, no preconceived ideas and such will make it easier not to feel hurt or such. It works for me, anyway. So far. 
b) is my biggest issue with many blogs and message boards. No good manners!
So I’m there with you in sharing a displeasure towards that blogger for not being good-mannered enough to thank you.
All that said, there ARE some mean-spirited people online [and in real life]. The best thing about the internet is the span of memory is incredibly short. Today what they say hurts, but next week, their comments are [deservedly] forgotten. Another great thing about the internet is if they pissed you off with nasty comments, you get a deep sense of satisfaction when you click on DELETE and it’s gone. Gone with the wind! Of course, while you click on DELETE, you get to sing, “Die, you miserable cow!” and she will NEVER know that.
The rule of the thumb is try not to take everything you read online to heart because sometimes it’s not always what it seems. I mean, there are some people who try to be funny by being snarky but fail, so they come off bitchy, catty and nasty. So, I usually stick with those who understand ‘internet writing’ enough to write in a way that leaves me no doubt about their moods and intentions. Less work that way!
In spite of everything I said here, I still get flamed for things I have said and I also get that feeling you recently had. But it’s, as one once said, the way of the Net.
by Maili March 26th, 2005 at 12:11 pmMaili, I hear you and I’m listening. With the website topic, the unpublished writer who asked the question was very generous in listening to both sides. The rebuttal was made by a subsequent poster whose only contribution to the discussion was the comment I ad-libbed and a link to the discussion she’d had previously. (I participated in that discussion with the same comments as well.) Basically, the feeling I got was, “I’m not going to set up a site, so why would anyone else want to?” End of subject. That person’s reasons for not setting up a website were her own and I respect that. But to dismiss (as I perceived it) that there might be valid reasons for doing the opposite of what she decided to do is one of the things that irks me.
I really get the feeling that so many people have been burned in the past that their hackles are already raised, their defenses are up and they’re ready to go to blows over the slightest perceived slight.
When I said this, I include me in this bunch. *g* But no, I haven’t been burned recently since I’ve been careful about where I go now and who I choose to respond to. Oddly it was gratefulness for the friends I do have that made me remember all the yucky times. I was thinking of all the people I met through my blog that I enjoy and that got me thinking about all the people I’ve met that I don’t enjoy at all.
That’s what brought on this post and my hope that I’ll meet more people like the ones I’ve met here and that I’ll be able to deepen those friendships and have them go beyond simple e-mails now and then. Also I should add that the people I’ve met in my online chapter are really swell too. *g*
by SylviaI’m a reserved person for the most part and spend most of my time observing. But I’m with you. When I respond i’m very selective on what topics I respond to. I’m mostly speaking of the lists and loops. But I find the blogging world a much more intimate source for connecting.
by Teresa March 26th, 2005 at 1:40 pmResponding to the portion I don’t want to be just private…
You say, ‘ Basically, the feeling I got was, “I’m not going to set up a site, so why would anyone else want to?‒ That’s the way a lot of people are. ‘I’ve made the decision (why? sometimes without a reason!) and therefore all who disagree with me are ATTACKING ME and are out to JUDGE ME and are MEAN and WRONG.’ Who cares that more than 70% of people who made sales and had a website said their website helped in the RWR? I had something like that happen to me recently about hiring freelance editors/book doctors, which I am strongly against. 99.5% of published authors would also consider it a bad idea. So what response did I get? I was just being mean and judgmental, and I just thought I was perfect and had nothing left to learn. Um. Yes. I spent my precious time to try to convince other people not to waste their money in order to be mean and to brag about what a great writer I think I am. But some people are just that freakin’ insecure. (Which led to my own “shoot yourself in the head” post–my response to a similar situation.)
On the other hand…
Just about anyone online who expresses any opinion whatsoever can be seen as negative. Some people will see your own post as backstabbing (since the people invovled can’t defend themselves here). In fact, I could find this REALLY offensive just because I’m a writer because your comments apply to all writers, and if I were feeling sensitive, I could think some very ugly thoughts about you apparently being the only “nice” writer in the whole wide world. I know that’s not what you meant, but that IS what you said. The “most writers” comment doesn’t soften it enough. And saying “I miss the type of friendships I have in the real world in my cyberworld. My real friends are loyal, they stand by me…” Wait, are you trying to say that the friends I meet online aren’t REAL? That I’m deluding myself? That I’M not a “real” friend to them, either–that I must be backbiting and nasty since I consider my self their friends? If you weren’t the person saying that, I might be having very violent thoughts about the time I read that because some of my very BEST friends are people I met online. We’re very loyal, sometimes fiercely so. And besides, you can’t have “every writer for herself” and have cliques at the same time. It just don’t work that way…
Your ***own post*** could be seen, without mental stretching, as an attack rant by people who are sensitized to any sort of conflict or extreme opinion. (And saying there are no nice writers that you’ve ever met is pretty extreme! I would say on the other hand that MOST of the writers I’ve met are “nice” even if I disagree with most of them about business matters!) How’s that for irony? I’m not saying you’re wrong to express these feelings. What I am saying is that you should be very careful of judging intentions behind reactions that *could* be offensive as anything more malicious than a strong emotional reaction, insecurity, or, well, pigheaded stupidity.
There are genuinely nice people out there. I’m a hardass, but I’d like to think that I’m one–and so’s Larissa, Alison, and Emma, all of whom are writers, as well, and all of whom have personalities quite similar to mine, though some have softer online personalities. We’re genuine, certainly–and all of us are perhaps genuine to a fault on our particular hot topics–me with author integrity issues and craft issues and business issues, Alison with genre issues, Emma with web design and ethics, and Larissa with vegetarianism and armed forces politics. But people who are openly in the public eye pretty much have a choice–they can be “out there” and open and honest and sometimes a little over-the-top, or they can be people who present a very, very carefully controlled view of themselves to their public, and when “other things” come through, it’s often a layer of acid under the sugar NOT BECAUSE they’re being extra nasty but because they’re *trying* to be a Nice Girl like they’ve been taught the should (and probably believe that they ARE being that girl) but failing miserably. (And, of course, be prepared for a vicious defense if anyone points that discrepancy out because if you’re not a Nice Girl, you must be a Nasty Girl. No wonder so many authors are taken for a ride… *sighs*)
Saying that people who are genuine just don’t exist or that you haven’t met them is both unkind and not constructive. (After all, Sasha’s one of your close friends, you met her online, and SHE’S a writer!) So is slamming every writer, however unintentionally, who reads your blog. But remember that we’re trying to take what you’re saying in the light of what you’re feeling–and please extend that generosity to other people as well.
We love ya, Sylvia.
Don’t discount that.
by Lydia March 26th, 2005 at 2:22 pmI’m thinking this is indicative of what happens outside of the writing world. Think back to junior high school - yuck. There were girls you liked and trusted, girls you liked but weren’t sure you could always trust and the nasty mean girls. Girls traveled between these groups but, at heart, you knew the ones who fell into the first category. Now, fast forward. All these young ladies have grown up. They still fall into one of these categories but now they’re writers. The key is to find those you like and trust and ignore the rest except for when you have to have contact in the professional world. If writers are nasty, defensive or even offensive, well, those are their issues. You keep being who you are and true to yourself. Clearly it’s working or we all wouldn’t stop in and check on you every day
by HelenKay March 26th, 2005 at 2:42 pmI told myself for MONTHS that I wouldn’t talk about how snarky I find the online romance community. I knew there would be no way to say what I thought and have it come out the way I intended. *sigh* So I’ll just highlight the parts I said about my friends so those comments can come out from under the shadow of the rest of my post:
I am tremendously grateful for my blog, message board, and the friends I have who all approached me through my site.
Oddly it was gratefulness for the friends I do have that made me remember all the yucky times. I was thinking of all the people I met through my blog that I enjoy… That’s what brought on this post and my hope that I’ll meet more people like the ones I’ve met here and that I’ll be able to deepen those friendships and have them go beyond simple e-mails now and then. Also I should add that the people I’ve met in my online chapter are really swell too. *g*
by SylviaI apologize to any visitors, writers or readers, who took offense to my post. That was never my intention.
I appreciate those of you who wrote to me and said that my apology was not necessary. Thank you so much.
*I did address some of the comments privately.
by SylviaGoober I have no clue why you’re apologizing
. You stated your opinion on your blog and for the most part I think all of us can empathise. Don’t ever apologize for how you feel, because you’re entitled to your feelings whether anyone agrees with you or not (and even if your feelings offend someone else–such is life).
by cece March 27th, 2005 at 6:13 amYou stated your case and you did it well.
Sylvia:!::!:
DEFINITELY no need to apologize:!::!:
You had EVERY right to express yourself - anyone who took offense, well, I don’t understand that
. We’ve ALL been on lists like the ones you describe 
- it’s a fact of the internet world. Can’t imagine anyone being offended by you stating what we already know.
by Teresa March 27th, 2005 at 9:21 amJust to clarify:
I’m not apologizing for my opinion or for expressing it. I meant to apologize for wording my post and comments in such a way that they could be misinterpreted.
I stand by my comments and my view of the online community.
by Sylvia[...] Ah my friends, thank you so much for your comments and personal e-mails regarding my post Cyberlife. So many of you were worried that perhaps my apology meant I would curb [...]
by Sylvia Day | Sensual Romance Author :: Weblog March 27th, 2005 at 9:13 pm[...] e as I know it
I’m relating thefollowing incidents to my previous post Cyberlife. HelenKay - What did I say? Alison - No sex in THIS post Don’t yo [...]
by Sylvia Day | Sensual Romance Author :: Weblog March 29th, 2005 at 5:54 pm